This image is a caricature by Red Elk that he sent to The SPECTRUM in a letter.

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Red Elk’s Medicine Message Of Worlds Within Worlds: Old Mysteries, Powerful Truths For Today

Red Elk interview continued:

They don’t have a soul like you or me; they don’t need it.  They do no wrong.  They do have a Heaven. 

But this misnomer about animals having souls—bull—they don’t need it.  They are doing right.  Do they have the decision to do right or wrong?  Yes, they do.  But they don’t have a soul that tells them “you are doing wrong” or “you are doing right”.  In general, a lion eating a man is doing what the lion has been ordered to do—eat, drink, and be merry. 

Gail Cortright:  (Laughter)

Red Elk:  Be a part of the ecology. 

Gail Cortright:  Does that mean that we have a soul because we have free will?

Red Elk:  We are the only ones in all Creation, all planets—any human of any planet are the only ones who are soul bearers.  We are given the great two gifts:  (1) the gift of self-will, and (2) the gift to be as god, but in little g form.  

Rick Martin:  Co-creator?

Red Elk:  No, absolutely not.  There is no co-creator.  You don’t co-create for the God.

[Editor’s note:  It appears here that Red Elk misunderstood the semantics of Rick’s question.  Rick’s definition of co-creating—as would be the same definition all of us would agree with—is identical to the #2 gift to humankind that Red Elk just mentioned above.  Those of you familiar with the spiritual messages long shared within these pages from Higher Teachers are already well aware of the finer points which differentiate the “little g” from the “big G” activities as we grow and evolve in Awareness and Balance.

Perhaps Red Elk is reacting to the arrogant misunderstandings long circulating around within New Age psychobabble, questions which he may often need to address in his teaching duties.]

Here, let me tell you a story that will explain this. 

A scientist went to God and said: “God, we don’t need you anymore.”

And He said: “What do you mean?”

And the scientist says: “Well, with our technology, we’ve learned to clone people, grow parts and stuff.  We don’t need you anymore.”

And Creator said: “Can you make man?”

And the scientist thought for a little while, and he said: “Well, we haven’t, but we could make man.  I’m pretty sure of it.”

And God says: “Alright, you go and make a man.  And when you’ve made that man, you come back to me.”

And the scientist said: “Ok.”  And then turns around, takes a few steps, reaches down, grabs some dirt in his hand, heads off, and God says: “Woah, woah, woah, wait a minute, wait a minute!”

And the scientist turns around and says: “What?”

And God says: “Get your own dirt.”

Gail/Rick:  (Laughter)

Red Elk:  Co-creation—my brother, there is nothing that you can create that has not been created somewhere by the Creator. 

We say: “We created a car.”

He says: “You’ve realigned the minerals and things needed for the car.”

Gail/Rick:  That’s right.

Red Elk:  We say: “We’ve made a toilet.” 

He says: “I made the materials; you just realigned it.”

Rick Martin:  Let’s get back to talking about the Real Rapture versus the False Rapture.

Red Elk:  The True Rapture.

Rick Martin:  How will people know the difference?

Red Elk:  It is NOT going to come before the troubles.  It will come probably more towards the end of the troubles, Armageddon.  And, at that time, those few who have not been hunted, and managed to survive, will be taken up and they WILL KNOW CHRIST IS COMING.

And there will only be, I believe, two left.  And those will be the two—it might be three, I might be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure it’s two—last prophets who give all the world a hard time, all the world, creating droughts and all kinds of trouble at their beck-and-call.  And they will be feared, mightily, by everybody on this planet, except each other.  All the other Christians—real, true Christians—are gone, or even those who have gone up in the First Rapture, thinking themselves Christians, and probably are, they’re gone.  The only ones left are two people, or three; I can’t recall.  And, eventually, they are killed. 

TV sets, everything, they throw a huge, huge world party for three days, day and night, looking at these rotting, ripped bodies, not disturbed from where they fell.   And at the end of that third day—into the fourth, maybe; I’m not dead sure—they will sit up—cut, bruised, kicked, ripped.  Look at the crowd, the TV sets, the newspaper men, all the great leaders who have come to drink over their bodies—and they will be totally alive, just as Christ was, and they will slowly be taken up into the Heavens.  And that’s when all hell breaks loose.  That’s when Armageddon will be.

Rick Martin:  And that will be within our lifetime?

Red Elk:  Probably, I don’t know.  How old are you.

Rick Martin:  49

Red Elk:  Probably, if you live a normal lifetime.  It might be within my lifetime.  It will definitely be within my daughter’s and my grandchildren’s.  I think all of this is going to be within—don’t quote, because I’m never given a time—25 years is a very safe over-estimate of when I think this will take place.  

Rick Martin:  Let’s again talk about the False Rapture, because it sounds like people should be alert to such a thing.  There is a saying in the Bible, to the effect that even the elect will almost be fooled, or something like that.  Is that referring to the False Rapture, do you think?

Red Elk:  That’s part of it, but not all of it.  The AntiChrist, Lucifer in human body, will con so many—that is a major part that Scripture is speaking of.  It’s part of the False Rapture; it’s part of what is actually going to take place; it’s part of many, many things.

The Scripture, we love it—medicine people, good medicine people, each of us have a minimum of three different Bibles, different types, King James, etc.  I have five; some I know have 7.

All but me will never admit that they are Christian.  I mean all of them but me.  And I have no problem because the word Christian means “Christ follower”. 

But when you say Christian, all kinds of red flags fly up, and who can blame them.  The way the Christians are today, it’s just a bunch of traditionalists with their nose in the wrong place.  But, a Christ follower does not have that same connotation; no red flags fly up.  It’s easy to call yourself a Christ follower and be it.

It takes time to learn, but it’s very easy, because what is Christ?  First off, what is God?  Many names for God, many names, in Scriptures alone many names.  But they all say that God is love, agape love, unconditional pure love.  And if God is love, and Christ is God who came on Earth as a human being only—no godliness any more than you or me—then that was still love on this Earth.  And if I’m a Christ follower, what am I?  I’m someone who follows the way of love, of purity, and I fall short.  But I keep trying; I keep wanting; I keep hungering. 

So, Christ follower?  Hmmm: love follower.  If you’re Buddhist, and love, you too are a Christ follower, i.e., a love follower.  If you are a voodooist, and love, and do things out of compassion and caring, not for rewards, that’s Christ love, that’s Love.  This fear-forcing of Christ into your life or you’re going to hell is a bunch of bull.  It’s LOVE IN YOUR LIFE, or you just might strike that lower place.  That’s the truth of it.

Rick Martin:  Let’s talk about one other thing while we’re on this subject, and that is something that, I don’t know how people arrive at this conclusion, but so many Christians are of the belief that Christ died for our sins.  I, for one, have said for years that no, that’s not true.  He came to show the way. 

Red Elk: Are you ready for the answer?

Rick Martin:  Sure.

Red Elk:  Alright.

The answer is this:  They’re right.

The answer is this:  You’re right.

Now, let me bridge that.  This is part of my job; I’m called “the bridge”. 

Christ came as a total human being.  God looked down from the Heavens at the people and said: “Why can’t they do what I told them to do?  Why are they going amuck like this?  Nothing is happening.  With them I can’t work.”

And the only way that I’m going to find out is to go down and find out Myself.  And the only way that I can do that is to be totally like them—totally.  I’ll watch from up here, and let Me down there, in them, as them, walk the Earth and find out if I can find, as a man, what will connect Me, that I told them about, to Me up Here. 

So, as a total human being, no more godliness than any of us when we’re born, He came down.  During His time, He eventually became what is known as the Savior, the Christ.

I’ve asked many people: “What is the first thing that Christ did that led him on the path to what he ended up as?”

And I get various answers.  I, finally, after many years, got the right answer from one person.

People said: “Well, he was baptized.”  “He went to church.”  “He did this; he did that.”  And that’s all true, but that’s not the first thing he did.

The first thing he did was hunger—he hungered to know his Father.  He, as a human being and as a Jew, a Jewish human being, saw all the rules and rituals, and heard all the great stories—Moses parted the water—and within walking distance, he could go to some great man’s grave who the stories were about.  But nothing was happening; hadn’t happened for 200, or better, years—nothing.  God was “dead”.  It was just becoming fables and myths. 

And yet, they claim He was the Father of their people.  Well, he wondered if there really was a God.  If there was, why weren’t things happening?  So, he hungered to find out if that was a bunch of bs, or true.  And he hungered to know the Father of his people—not the dad of conception, but the Dad of the people.

He, as a human being, hungered, and in that hunger, he started finding truths, until eventually he did certain things.  He went into the desert.  He fasted.  And the Bible said he went into the wilderness to fast often, not just the forty days and nights.  He himself was baptized.  He did many things.  And he said: “Follow me.”  And if people will do exactly what he did, they can do exactly what medicine people can do who follow him—love.

Now, in so doing, at the end times of this great search of his, and this great in-knowledge that he was receiving, he recognized himself as a good possibility of being “the Savior”, “the Christ”; and in that, he knew that the Christ was going to die a horrible death. 

But, he prayed so hard that blood came out of his pores, so says Scriptures.  He didn’t want any part of the way that death was coming about, no part.  Himself, his tonal, his physical mind and body didn’t want it, not if it could help it. 

But his spiritual mind said: “Nevertheless, Father, Your Will be done, not mine.” 

He went to the cross to prove his own convictions, as well as prove to the world that, by doing what he had done, and learned, and had taught, that there is no death.  And he willingly went to that cross, and was put to death, to prove to himself, and everybody else, that God was alive. 

Christ, literally, died for his own convictions; died to prove that all he had learned in his hunger walk to find the Father of his people was true, and the only thing left to prove it was no death.  So he died to prove to the world that the Creator lived for them.  He died to prove to himself that the Creator lived for him; and the rest is history. 

People look at Christ as some kind of gifted guy.  Yeah, he had a lot of money when he was a baby.  A bunch of camels came with loot.  But, nevertheless, they look at him like he was the Son of God.  What a bunch of dweebs.  They claim they are sons of God through adoption.  Well why don’t they act it?  Don’t make excuses for your lack of doing, your lack of faith.  And don’t write new words in the Bible. 

So far, I have found every Christian to be nothing but a liar.  ALL claim to believe 100% in the Word of God—until they don’t believe it.  And then they make an excuse or write it out.  A bunch of liars!  And I’ve told them, too, to their face, pastors included.  And then I point it out, and they look awful sick when I’m done. 

Gail/Rick:  (Laughter)

Rick Martin:  This may be off-track, it may not be.  Are you familiar with Christ going on after the crucifixion, going on to teach many, many years in different places?

Red Elk:  I’m familiar with the so-called truth of that.  I’m familiar with the fact that people are claiming he was married, and had children.  It is not so.  His brother, who carried the last name, if you would, was married and had children.  No, Christ did not.  He came back for a short period; over 500, I believe, saw him, talked to him.  And then he did go up into the air.  Christ taught, and we have learned, as medicine people, how to “split”.  For instance, I can literally—and it’s hard for me to do this—be seen, sit with, eat, drink, drive a car, at 11 different places at once.  It’s called “splitting”.  Some people know how to do this.  Christ is not dead.  He’s not spirit.  He does live in the Heavens, and has learned to do the same thing, but he has chosen to do so inside a believer’s body.  Do you understand?

Rick Martin:  I think so.  Can you explain it?

Red Elk:  He comes into you.  Where I have learned to—I do not go in, even at invitation.  I don’t; it’s not my job; it’s not my safety zone; it’s not what I’m ordered to do.  I do not go in and possess, or occupy, another human being; I don’t do it.

But, HE is perfect.  He can and does do it.  Scripture says: “Invite Him into your life.”  The Bible says: “Invite me in, and I will come in.”  At your personal commitment, your own personal ok, the living Christ does a split and appears in front of you, and sits down and sups with you, and you with him.  He comes inside you to help you, at your own, personal invitation. 

So, no, Christ did not come back and walk the Earth as a single man, all over the place; no.  And he certainly did not get married, no.

[Interviewer’s Note: As an investigative journalist with a longtime, special, personal interest in this particular subject matter, over the years I have managed to accumulate a number of books which document the journey of Christ AFTER the crucifixion, which includes sojourns to India and Kashmir, among other places.

For those of you wishing to research this subject yourself, here are a few titles you might want to study:

He Walked The Americas by L. Taylor Hansen (1963, Amherst Press); Jesus Lived In India—His Unknown Life Before and After The Crucifixion by Holger Kersten (1986, Element Books, ISBN: 0-906540-90-9); The Talmud Of Jmmanuel (ISBN: 0-926524-12-7); The Jesus Conspiracy—The Turin Shroud & The Truth About The Resurrection by Holger Kersten & Elmar R. Gruber (Element Books, ISBN: 1-85230-666-1); The Jesus Mystery—Of Lost Years and Unknown Travels by Janet Bock (ISBN: 0-937736-00-7); Jesus’ Tomb In India—Debate On His Death And Resurrection by Paul C. Pappas (ISBN: 0-89581-946-5); Where Did Jesus Die? by J.D. Shams (ISBN: 1-85372-190-5); Jesus In India by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (ISBN: 1-85372-196-4).

According to all of the above books, Christ’s brother Didymos (the twin) Judas Thomas traveled with Christ to India.  Didymos Judas Thomas preached throughout India, and was eventually killed on the Central/East coast of India, on a hillside just outside the town of Madras.  He was unmarried throughout his life.  — R.M.]

But, he IS in anyone who is dead serious about growing spiritually.  That’s him, his own personal split body, physical body, inside, when you are serious and ask him about it.  And even then, he does not take control.  Even then, he leaves you to do your own will, and he is there to pick you up when you fall, and to give you strength, falling or walking. 

Does that answer your question?

Rick Martin:  Yes. 

The battle that is about to ensue, or is happening now—Christ has a battle in front of him with Lucifer, also, doesn’t he?

Red Elk:  Nope, nope, nope.  You see, Lucifer already knows he has lost.

Rick Martin:  Sure he does.

Red Elk:  He knows it.  But he will come as a roaring lion.  He knows that he cannot take souls, any more than he can get.  Those who are, so-called, perfectly possessed are his.  And he gets them.  

But, no. What he’s doing is just coming as a roaring lion.  He is making all the peoples from all the planets come over and cause all the hurt and harm to each other.  He knows, when those people die, if they’re going into the Heavens or not.  He already knows this.  He knows he’s lost.  He’s got just a few from each planet—himself, personally, who will belong to him.  He knows he’s already lost. 

So what is the war in the Heavens now?  Just the very beginning of that roaring lion—ripping, shredding, screaming, anger, hate, madness. 

Do you understand?

Rick Martin:  I know that Christ lives.  I know that he is watching very carefully what is happening on the planet now, and at some point his role is going to be very direct.

Red Elk:  Oh yes, Armageddon.

Rick Martin:  How do you perceive Christ’s role in what is coming?

Red Elk:  He’s the finisher.  I can say no more than that.  I should not have to. 

HE IS THE FINISHER.  But it’s only the finisher for this time.  We will have some time—close to 3,000 almost 4,000 years before the FINAL DAY, the DAY OF JUDGMENT COMES.

Rick Martin:  The last few decades have brought about a great number of channels.  What is your feeling or knowing about channeled material?

Red Elk:  In general, dangerous; overall, dangerous; and overall, b.s.

Gail Cortright:  Thank you, thank you.

Rick Martin:  Along this same line, how to you see Creator having a voice in these End Times?  How do you see that manifesting?

Red Elk: I don’t understand the question.

Rick Martin:  I’m not sure I’m asking this right.

Gail Cortright:  In my opinion, directly to people who have that connection with Creator.

Red Elk:  I’m still not sure of the question.  That’s alright, let’s get it right.  Let’s get it where I can answer it.

Rick Martin:  In these End Times there is a great deal of turmoil, conflict, confusion among people.  Creator is alive and well, and always has been, and Christ is alive and well.  How do you see the confused people receiving their answer from God when petitioned?  Only quietly, within themselves, or through speakers?

Red Elk:  There will be, and are, true prophets.  When a prophet speaks, a prophet of God, there is such an authority, such an unshakable authority, that behind the words themselves, they know they are listening to something so strong, it is possibly incomprehensible.  Those are the people of God, the prophets of God. 

Will they come quietly?  Many will come quietly.  Many will hear the Word of God in their mind as they read the Word of God.  If they seek the Creator’s truth, in the Word, by reading, and ask the Creator to show Himself to them, trying to disregard what they believe, or heard, or were taught—just total, like a brand new baby—God will talk to them.  Each individual word will blow-up like a shell. 

God needs no interpreter.  He needs nothing.  All He wants, and really needs, if you want to call it a need, is for honesty; people with true hearts who are honestly looking for the truth. 

And they’re not going to find it in any denomination, any religion.  They will find it, it ends up, in one thing only: love; and that, I mean, is nothing to do with human love; this is GOD LOVE. 

They will find that oneness with God.  And the whole group finding this oneness will be the TRUE BODY OF BELIEVERS.  You can call yourself Buddhist, Christian believer or Christ follower, Muslim, you can go there and kneel on your rug and pray to the East in the name of God.  For a Muslim that name is Allah.  There should be no fight over names.  Allow the way they feel comfortable in their culture.  If they want to remain there, fine, just as love, pure love. 

Christ, didn’t die for one religion.  He died for all mankind, on all planets, in all planes, all times.  One guy, and only one, and it happened here on this planet, died for everyone, and proved that that Word that he followed, he searched for, he hungered after, and he learned and taught.  It is in Scripture how to do what he did.  It’s taught—proved to himself and proved to the world that what he learned was true.  Love is the answer.  And people, no matter how they get to that conclusion, and fall completely upon that conclusion, go nowhere else but in that conclusion, they are the Body of Believers; they are the so-called Church.  And I don’t care if they’re Black, Yellow, Green, Plaid.  I don’t like it, but if they have to kill a chicken because that’s their culture, and pray to God, maybe God will lead them out of that.  That’s not my business.  My business is to love my brother, who loves my Father, just like I love Him. 

Gail Cortright:  Well, I personally, going back to what you were talking about earlier, about false prophets, whatever you want to call them.  A lot of people are really afraid, or don’t believe that they can have that connection to Christ, or to Creator, themselves.

Red Elk:  They run after false prophets.

Gail Cortright:  That’s right.

Red Elk:  Worshiping and awe-inspired by false prophets.

Gail Cortright:   That’s right.  In speaking about the channeled material, so often—

Red Elk:  So often, the channeled material is so true, you accept it.  So, all they have to do is insert one untruth.  And to me, the Bible, its got many names on its cover—it says “holy” Bible, in general.

I see it also says: War—A Manual Of Warfare, on how to defeat the enemy.

I also see that it says: Love.

And I also see that it says: Safety Net.

If people would just sit down and read the Scriptures—never mind what they feel about it.  I don’t care if they’re Muslims; I don’t care if they’re atheists.  If they just read Scriptures, like they pick up any other book, and READ IT, then when a decision comes, they will know, automatically, if it is morally correct, or if it’s immoral, or if it’s against the Law.  If it is against the Law, and the Law happens to be morally incorrect—you know, in Germany, WWII, the Law made it morally incorrect—YOU FOLLOW LOVE, EVEN IF IT MEANS YOUR LIFE.

Gail Cortright:  That’s a pretty strong statement.

Red Elk:  Well, my sister—

Gail Cortright:  I agree with you, by the way.

Red Elk:  I have many people who call me, write me—boy do I get it!  Their “Guides” tell them to do this, and their “Guides” tell them that; and they want me to think highly that they’ve got “Guides”, or are following a human being.  And they claim I have a “Guide”.  I have no “Guide”.  I have a guideline. 

Gail Cortright:  (Laughter)

Red Elk:  I have no enemies.  If they think I’m their enemy, they are mistaken.  I mean, that’s their decision.  I have two people I won’t even go around, but that’s because I don’t like what they do. 

Gail Cortright:  Right.

Red Elk:  But I stand back.  They are my brother and sister.  It happens to be a man and a woman.  And I pray for them, because they are my brother and sister, and I am not to “down them”, I am not to hurt them, bad-mouth them, and on and on.  I don’t have to like what they’re doing, but I love them because they came from the same MIND WOMB that I did, the MIND WOMB OF GOD. 

Gail Cortright:  Right, right.

Rick Martin:  Do you perceive a time when we all will be sitting around the campfire, in the next dimensions, telling tales of this experience, and laughing?

Red Elk:  I cannot “knowingly” say that.  By knowing, I’m speaking truly, completely, wholly knowing.  Maybe we will do something similar, laughing at our own mistakes, our own stupidity.

Rick Martin:  That’s what I mean.

Red Elk:  Not laughing at somebody else’s.  

Rick Martin:  I was referring more to ourselves.

Red Elk:  Not saying, “Do you remember when YOU did it?” 

Instead, let them tell you they remember it.  And then, enjoy it.  There is no bad.  You look back on it, and overall, it was all for your growth.  There will be nothing around any campfire.  If there is a campfire, that will be nothing more, or less, than love. 

Gail Cortright:  So what do you think about people who say this is all a play?  There’s no right, there’s no wrong; it’s just a play. 

Red Elk:  In truth, my sister, when the Creator, on the Day of Judgment—first off, let me back-up just a bit.  Hades exists only for your own “pleasure”, believe it or not; call it displeasure if you’d like.  You believe, subconsciously, that you belong there, so you go there.  Or, you believe you’re going to Heaven, so you go there.

In the Final Days, ALL will stand before the Creator, even the Angels.  And they will—now, this is the Great Judgment Day, 1,000 years away yet, or 3,000, or 4,000.  Nevertheless, you go to hell because, subconsciously, you believe that’s where you belong.  It’s not necessarily God’s belief.  But even in that, He doesn’t go against your will.

You believe you may go to Heaven.  Yet, Scriptures say, many say, “Lord, Lord”—and I will say “I know you not.”  They are nothing more than chaff in the wheat, but they believe they belong up there; and thus, they will go up there.  But on the Great Day of Judgment, they’ll find out that’s not where they belong.

And those who are down below, many of those will find out they’ve just judged themselves; that’s not the way God judges.  And there will be a great shifting.  And you will hear a lot of smacking, as people kick each other in the butt, and kick themselves in the butt.  Many who are in Lucifer’s realm, being tortured now, according to THEIR OWN BELIEFS, will find out they had no need to be there.  And many, right now in the Heavens, will find out they have no right to be there. 

And death will—this is the death the Bible speaks of fearing—death will be, kind-of imagine all of the ones who have been so self-centered, so self-possessed, or literally sold-out entirely to Lucifer, in all ways; look at them like a great mass of tadpoles in a great sack of tadpoles.  Do you understand what I mean?

Gail Cortright:  Yes.

Red Elk:  Each tadpole, in it’s own tiny little sack, within this great mass of sack, is an individual being, a soul, a human being—that will be cast out of God’s Mind.  There is the FINAL DEATH.  There is the eternal hell.  Though you be in a mass of other tadpoles, you will not be aware of any other tadpole in this great mass.  You will be aware of only yourself, separated forever from God, and no more to ever, ever have a chance to repent.  You’ve done it all.  THERE, my friend, is a hell worse than Hades is now. 

Answered the question? 

Gail Cortright:  I know what the question was, everybody talking about how this is a play. 

Red Elk:  Oh, I’ll tell you, this is a very serious play.  You’d better play it right. 

Gail Cortright:  That’s kind-of how I feel.  When people talk about, “Oh, this is just a play”—

Red Elk:  That’s their path, sister; let them think it. 

Gail Cortright:  Yeah, absolutely.

Red Elk:  We have no choice.  We cannot force, or in any way make another change their path.

Gail Cortright:  That’s right.

Red Elk:  All you can do is live YOUR path, and live it in such a manner that it makes them hungry to find out what your path is all about.  Only example, ONLY LOVE will bring these ratty moths to the light, and whether they choose that light or not, is still their choice. 

Gail Cortright:  That’s true.

Red Elk:  You cannot win them all. 

Gail Cortright:  And when you’re talking of love, a lot of people have the, I think, misconception that when you’re talking about love, even unconditional love—like you were saying, you don’t have any enemies, you stay away from people.  You love them, but you don’t like what they do.  And I think a lot of people, when they think about love, they feel like they have to accept everything that anybody does.

Red Elk:  No, don’t cast your pearls before the swine, which can mean many things within that one phrase.  You don’t put yourself in the way, stepping in front of a freight train that is not going to stop—in this case, a human being who’s got his/her own way—get off the track and just be a light.

Gail Cortright:  Exactly, exactly.  But a lot of people think they have to get hit by that freight train, because that’s what love means.

Red Elk:  No, no, no; personally I think that they’re crazy.  (Laughter)

Gail Cortright:  (Laughter)  So do I. 

Red Elk:  The Bible speaks about, again, the Safety Net; I use the Bible as my Safety Net.  When someone does you wrong, you know, turn your cheek and let them hit you on the other side, like that; forgive them X times X amount, like that.  But yet, there comes a point where, why torture yourself ?  They are God’s children, stand back.  Get out of their reach, and let God do the work.  Just pray to God, as you pity them in humility—in honesty and in compassion pray for those ones.

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