Spectrum Magazine Interview - Article 2 

This image is a caricature by Red Elk that he sent to The SPECTRUM in a letter.

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The following is excerpted from the APRIL issue of The SPECTRUM Magazine.

Note: In this format some the interesting graphics have been removed. See the PDF file (2.8 MB) for the complete unaltered story, with all the graphics, plus many other informative articles.

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Red Elk’s Medicine Message Of Worlds Within Worlds: Old Mysteries, Powerful Truths For Today

3/8/02    Rick  MARTIN

Movies such as Journey To The Center Of The Earth evoke exotic images of strange creatures, precious stones, wondrous waterfalls, singing crystals, mysterious tunnels, and grand cities.  For some adventurous ones, such exotic themes also stimulate images of lost cultures, buried archives of secret information, and fantastic treasures beyond description.

And then there are the old reports of tall, luminescent, wise beings existing somewhere within an Inner Earth, visited by men of such unimpeachable integrity as Admiral Richard E. Byrd.  Of course other legends recount not-so-nice creatures of a dark underworld, the likes of which you don’t really care to visit.  And what about the super-deep and mysterious caverns and “holes” that some have explored?  What about the reports of strange sounds and bizarre sights coming from somewhere within these curious underground locations?

So—what is fantasy and what is truth concerning that which may or may not exist beneath our feet?

What about the technically advanced, often intimidating beings from elsewhere—called gods (with a small g) in some languages—who seem to have had a lot to do with the early development of planet Earth and her lifeforms?  Where are they now?

Are there LAYERS, of a sort, to the structure of planet Earth—like floors in a highrise office building?  And could there be lifeforms—insulated from each other for various reasons—living within these layers?  Or moving fluently through strata of rock as if in a swimming pool?

Some profess to know a great deal about such matters.  It is part of their role, at this time of The Great Awakening, as keepers of ancient knowledge and teachers of long-hidden Truth.

One such teacher is the wise Zulu Shaman and Elder, Credo Mutwa, who we first featured in the October 1999 issue of The SPECTRUM.  Another such gifted soul is the subject of this interview—a most gracious and interesting character known as Red Elk.

Red Elk is an Inter-Tribal Native American Medicine Man.  He is a self-described “half-breed” Native American from both the BlackFoot and Shoshoni Nations, as well as being part Irish and French.

He is a member of the Heyoka (hi–OH–kah), a contrarian group of Native American “lost boys”.  He is, furthermore, one of twelve Inner Heyoka.  Red Elk is one of the last nine members of the Red Web Society, who are working to bring true understanding to Earth.  He is Official Keeper of the Tunnels, Official Keeper of the Pyramids, the Temporary Caretaker of the Flying-Red-Dragon Drum—a very sacred symbol of the Hopi nation; he is likewise the Altar Carrier of the Native Nations.  Red Elk is regarded—by both Whites and Native Americans—as the bridge between the Native people and ALL other religions—including the atheists.  (Now there’s a challenging position in itself !)

Red Elk was the featured guest on Art Bell’s late-night talk-radio program on Wednesday night/Thursday morning December 12, 2001.  Those of you who listened to that program with any interest were probably a bit dismayed as Art adopted a rather disjointed and impatient (perhaps even abrupt or rude) manner at times with this very wise yet humble guest.

Red Elk did his best to just “go along with the flow” of the evening.  The information which Red Elk attempted to share in the familiar story-telling style of his cultural heritage seemed to annoy Art, causing interruptions and derailments that did not allow a most interesting narrative to naturally unfold.

So, after hearing this disappointing broadcast, we here at The SPECTRUM invited Red Elk to share his message in this much more “peaceful” and appreciative forum—promising no interruptions or other irritating distractions.  Red Elk quickly accepted our written invitation with a thoughtful return phone call.  He then further honored us by blessing the success of this magazine, and saying this forum serves an important and unique teaching purpose.

On a more human level, Red Elk is a most humble and sincere man, with a great, yet often subtle and self-effacing sense of humor.

(He is also a longtime accomplished cartoonist—a teller of stories, with humor, in pictures—with his self-portrait being displayed nearby.  This was lifted from the “signature” at the bottom of a recent written note congratulating us on the new magazine format for The SPECTRUM, and encouraging us to: “Now get it on the magazine stands in a big way!  Aho! ”)

He is coming up rapidly on his 61st year, in a few months, and has received, by his own recollection, over 41 years of ancient wisdom training.

I asked Red Elk for some additional biographical information that could precede the actual interview, and here is what he had to say:

Red Elk:  I was born in 1942, in Ellenburg, Washington.  At—my mother says from the first year, I don’t recall it—the Indian’s Yakima Nation, at the rodeo, their last Wakian(or holy, medicine man) came and saw me at that year.  I don’t recall it, but I do recall every year since. 

In my 4th year, we moved to Detroit.  Before moving, the Elder, who came every year, came to the family after the rodeo, something he never did before, ever.  He put his arm across my shoulder, and for the first time in anybody’s memory, spoke English.  We didn’t know he knew how, really.

He told my mother: “One day, this young boy will grow up to do many great things amongst his people.”  And then he just put his hand on my head and smiled down at me, and walked off.  We never saw him again.

And his people, I’m not sure if they were the Whites, or the Indians, or what, but nevertheless, my mother, who despised Indians, all but Chief—we all called him Chief—she just had a great regard for this gentleman, as well as all the people in the Nation, of the Yakimas.  She always feared I’d grow up, someday, to be Indian.  I never realized that.  I always thought I was.  Mom is much more Indian than I am, but was always fearful that one day I’d go bush. 

Anyway, at 4 it was predicted that this would be—in short, without saying it, I would be a medicine man, and evidently Wakian, a holy man, as well.  

And I started my lessons at age 10.  Heyoka means contrary, or the backward people, the people who go to the beat of a different drum; the people who used to hop on their horses and say “I hate you” to mean “I love you”; and they’d hop on the horse backwards and ride off. 

I was more or less born Heyoka.  I was kind of wild.  I did strange things.  I was raised in Detroit, more or less in the streets, in and around Detroit.  It was kind of fun.  People thought I was crazy there.

I used to belong to what they called the Hood Blades, one of the gangs in Detroit.  In the gang I was the only one who never had to be initiated.  Initiation was pretty rough.  I asked them why.  And they told me, because they thought I was crazy; they thought I’d kill’em.  I don’t know why, I really don’t.  They were afraid of me.

I was a mediator, more than a fighter.  And when I would fight, I would, literally, take on 3, when someone would take on 1; or I would take on 10, when someone would take on 1 or 2.  And, frankly, the reason for it was, I knew I couldn’t fight worth a dang, and I was going to lose, so I was going to go down looking good, fighting a lot more than I—you know, I couldn’t beat one, let alone all of them, but I looked good.  And it went well with the gang. 

In 9th grade I only went 32 days.  The rest of the time, nobody could find me because I was out trapping, and tracking, and hunting, right in downtown Detroit.  They had little fills between factories, and stuff.  I’d be out there with rat-traps trapping quail, and pheasants, tracking deer alongside the polluted creeks and waters, right by the big auto factories. 

But nobody could find me.  And if I wasn’t out there, I was in the library, studying.  Because they don’t teach people what they should teach in school.  Reading, writing, and arithmetic, and understanding history, that’s about all you really need—unless you deliberately feel like you want to be a doctor or a scientist.  But to be able to read right, and do basic math, is all people need.  And that’s all I needed. 

Other things here are much more important to me, the things of the spirit, and the things of doing, knowledgeable things.  In my case, survival techniques, stealth, hiding and stuff, even as a kid.

But nevertheless, I quit high school at the age of 15.  They called me to find out why I wasn’t going to school when it started.  And I told them: “Look, I’m going to be 16 here in another 5 months or so, and I’m going to walk right out the door.  So I’m not coming in.  Why waste your time and mine.  I have better things to do.”  I had to learn spiritual things, and you can’t learn that in the school. 

My training just went on the rest of my life.  8½ years on the black side, to know the enemy—you know, the dark side.  2½ years at a non-denominational Bible college, which was interdenominational, taught by many, many Christians, and teachers, denominations, as well as bringing in people from other religions and stuff—a good education. 

In the Inner Heyoka, of which I’m a member, which is the highest calling anyone can get into, I am what they call a master envisioner, or a high-master envisioner.  And my training to do that lasted from the age of 10 until, gosh, until ’54.  So, I can envision what is needed.  I can’t do things for self, I just had to learn; then I had to turn it back.  I learn these things so that I can teach these things. 

Well, anyway, I’m just a common Joe.  I put my pants on like any other Heyoka, which is over your head, before you figure out you got them on upside-down. 

Heyoka means contrary, backwards, the one who does things that go to a different drummer.  Actually, our prisons are full of Heyokas, although they don’t know that’s what they are—untrained, unaimed Heyokas.

The Heyoka Society started ages and ages ago, when some kids were getting in trouble within Nations, and some Elders got together and said: “What are we going to do with these kids?”  You know, juvenile delinquents, Indians. 

And nothing they were doing was doing any good because they were so backwards, so contrary.  They decided to make a Boy Scouts of America, in a sense, for Indians; to make a special society, and they called the society The Heyoka.

What happened was, they’d take these bad boys, bad girls, and gave them the unique ability of “being different”, allowing them to be different, but under control.  Suddenly, these people, these young kids, had a reason, they had a pride; they weren’t bad anymore.  They belonged to a society, their own. 

And, in time of war, the Heyokas, in any given tribe, or small set of teepees, or whatever, if they were under attack, the Heyokas would run to the Society teepee, and sit inside and play bone games, and smoke, and have fun.

Everybody else out there is dying, and killing, until somebody would run in and dive through the door and yell: “Don’t get your bows and arrows.  And don’t go kill the enemy.”  And then leave.

And boy, that’s all they were waiting for.  Nobody tells a Heyoka to do a damn thing.  So, they’d do the opposite.  And they were good fighters, especially in the BlackFoot.

Your Heyoka people, most of those, turned out to be Dog Soldiers, and excellent Dog Soldiers.  And these are people who would take a long line of horse hair or leather, tie it to their waist, and stake themselves out—about 20-30 feet of line.  And they would go right into the middle of a battle and stake themselves there, and they would fight to the death.  And usually didn’t die, either.  They were pretty good killers. 

And then, the Inner Heyoka, that is something only the very wisest and oldest Elders in our Nation of Indians, no matter what Nation, and those are few in existence who know of the Inner Heyoka, who hear rumors of a society in existence that has been in existence since (to them) time became.  Most of them have no idea who they are, other than the fact that these are very, well, I guess you call them very special, spiritual people.

That’s rumor; they know about it.  But the vast majority of any Indian Nation know nothing about it.  It’s just a very, very few.  I doubt if there’s more than 26 left alive who even have heard rumors of it. 

I was invited to be an Inner Heyoka.  A bunch came to me, men and women, came right through the door; they were spirits, Indian people.  And they stood there, and I gave honor, and they gave talk.  Right here, right where I’m at.

At that very moment, I couldn’t understand why these spirits had come to me.  Finally, they asked if I would like to be a member of their society.  And I said “What society is this?”  

And they said “Inner Heyokas”. 

And I said “Gee, I don’t know.  I don’t know much about it, at all.” 

And they went on to explain where it started, and what it consisted of.  It all sounded good.

But, I don’t do things without checking with the Creator.  So, I told them that.  First, I’d have to check and see, ’cause I ain’t gonna do it unless God Himself says so.

So, I did.  I prayed. 

And the Creator said “Yes”.  That’s all He said, “Yes”.

And I opened my eyes, and I looked at them, and I said “Yes”.

And from there on in, things really started skyrocketing in my spiritual life.  At that time, shortly thereafter, I was taken for a great ceremony and given the name of Red Elk, which I didn’t like.  I can think of better names for myself.  Red Elk, to me, sounded like a very dumb name.  And it was about a year later that I was told WHY I was given the name Red Elk.  Now, I’m very honored. 

Black Elk, in the book, Black Elk Speaks, Black Elk was a great prophet, Wakian.  And he foretold of the coming of the White man, and how the White man would intersect and intercede the ways, i.e., the religions, the spiritual touch, as well as life, of the Indians. 

I’ve been given the name Red Elk because I foretell; my job is to foretell that the White ways are going away, and the Red ways are returning. 

The Black Elk Speaks gentleman told of how the White man’s religion would encroach upon ours. 

I, in turn, say now:  It is the Red man’s religion—the thirst for the spiritual touch of the mind, the Face of God, in and through Nature, as well as to Him, personally, the Way of the True Indian Touch—it’s coming to the Whites.  And, believe me, IT IS! 

There are so many Whites—it’s unbelievable—who thirst.  Not all have Indian blood.  There’s a tremendous amount who do, just a little speck.  And they’ve been searching and searching and searching.

I’ve been ordered to teach.  And Mr. Bell’s show [with over 20 million radio listeners] kind-of really put me “out-there”.  And I’ve got hundreds of people wanting to learn.  I’m starting a website; it’s raw.  The news will go worldwide, how to get in touch with the Creator—your spiritual growth.  The thing that matters to every man and woman, every child, is not how many cars you can drive, not how big a house you can own.  That’s nice, and there’s nothing wrong with it.  But with nothing but an empty heart, and a thirst that can’t be quenched, IT IS NOTHING!  And though I’m a poor man, I’m probably a richer man than most men on Earth.

And so, there it is.

Rick:  And, to me, the term Red Elk also implies the Red Road.

Red Elk:  Oh, it does, it does.  Black Elk implies the Black Road.  And in the circle, there’s a cross, or a straight line across, and a straight line up and down.  And one is Red, and the other is Black, and they intersect.

At one time, there was only one line, and on each end of the line was a color, the color Red; and it’s called the Red Road.  But then the Black came in, and crossed over it, just sliced right through it, didn’t break it, just sliced right through it.  That is called the White Road, even though it’s Black—it’s the darkness of not knowing.  And now, those colors are reversed.  Where the Black Road had Black, it is now Red; where the Red had Red, it is now Black. 

The Indian Way of how to get back to God, in purity, it very much concerns scripture; it very, very much concerns the Koran; it very much concerns Buddha.  It concerns every religion, regardless of what that religion thinks or feels or believes about each other.  Any religion, and they ALL, with one exception, all religions, all cultures, are trying to find the Face of the Creator, and they’re doing so in their own cultural way. 

The one exception are those who are perfectly possessed, who deliberately want to be that way, and go against God in all ways.  That is the only religion that is NOT seeking the Creator, and in truth, seeking love.  Those ones seek nothing but power and self-gratification.

*  *  *

That was what Red Elk had to say about himself by way of introductory comments.  Quite a bit to think about, don’t you agree?

To communicate with Red Elk directly, please write to him at: P. O. Box 166, Thorp, WA  98946.  Keep in mind that Red Elk has very limited financial means; therefore, if you would like a response to your communication, please enclose a self-addressed, STAMPED envelope.  And be patient!  

  Also be sure and keep an eye on the www.redelk.org Internet website which, as it grows and evolves, will be featuring much information about Red Elk, his messages, and his public activities.

*  *  *

Now, if you think that some of my past stories have stretched and challenged your view of the world, prepare yourself for what you are about to read.  Red Elk’s powerful words of spiritual Truth and universal Insight stand out like shining gems—perhaps even beacons of Light—to be discovered along the winding road of his commentaries, discussions, and personal opinions of shared experience.

You may agree; you may disagree.  Ones should always go within to discern what is Truth for themselves.  But I can say, without hesitation, that what Red Elk has to offer is fascinating to contemplate and, in some instances, perhaps remarkable beyond belief.

[Editor’s note: It should be pointed out here, as an aside, that this discussion with Red Elk completely sidesteps the “dangerous” realm of secret MILITARY underground bases and related shenanigans—a subject well known to most readers of this publication and to Red Elk.  Those of you who may be new to that subject should at least go back and re-read Rick Martin’s recent UFO feature series.  Rather, the focus of this interview is other interesting things going on under our feet—besides what one particular secret faction of the military are up to, in conjunction with certain alien races here on planet Earth.]

There are, naturally, occasional problems with semantics—what we mean by what we say—especially when addressing complicated or otherwise multi-faceted topics, and especially those which are often dealt with through allegory or symbolic imagery.  But longtime readers of this magazine have grown in recognition and discernment of such matters.  It’s unavoidable when spanning vast cultural issues.

By his own admission, Red Elk says he often comes across more like a Bible preacher than a Native American medicine man.  Remember that one of his jobs at this time is the bridging of the gap between the Native Americans and other cultures.  And nowhere is that artificial gap wider than over formalized religious differences—differences that don’t truly exist at the fundamental core of Truth.  Cutting through that jungle of differences, when such arises, takes patience and meeting others at least half-way.

Red Elk feels that another aspect of his job at this time of The Great Awakening here on planet Earth is—no surprise here—the awakening of the great natural abilities, birthright gifts from God (with a capital G), that are sleeping within all of us.  A truly good teacher—particularly a “contrarian” of such stature from the Inner Heyoka—is going to be pretty clever and unexpected and demanding in methodology to “shake you up” as part of opening up your mind to possibilities.

And speaking of which, here’s a first as far as requests go, considering all the various interviews I have shared in this publication over the years: During the initial contact with Red Elk, he requested that a woman be present during the interview, so that the “female perspective” would be represented.  Red Elk feels that the female energy looks at the world in a different way, thus asking different questions that may never occur to a male interviewer.

Honoring his request, my wife, Gail Cortright, joined me on February 15, 2002, for this lively conversational interview, which lasted well over three hours.  Hold on for quite a ride and, again, make an effort to always look for the fundamental Truth which Red Elk is sharing—and don’t get lost in any details you may have trouble agreeing with.

Rick Martin: What we are curious about, and all of our readers will be curious about, is the Inner Earth, and all of the worlds, the supposedly 5 worlds, under us.  And yet, after reading your document [a powerful 24-page booklet titled The Agendas], I want to skip all that and go straight to the War in the Heavens.  But, I guess they’re both so related, we’ll cover both.

Red Elk:  It’s a doozy. 

Rick Martin:  Let’s just jump right in.  Don’t hold anything back.

[After some brief discussion with Red Elk about letting his dog out, and it being “our dime” paying for the telephone call, he made reference to one of “Mel’s dimes”.

Here he was referring to some extremely unusual “1943 Roosevelt dimes” that were discovered near Mel’s Hole and at another location, in a different state, where there’s a similar deep hole in the ground.  You coin experts will immediately say: “But there is no such thing as a 1943 Roosevelt dime!”  And that’s where things start to get interesting.  These dimes are not supposed to exist—at least not on this time-line!

Mel’s Hole is a seemingly bottomless pit on a parcel of private property in Washington state.  It was dubbed Mel’s Hole when Art Bell first had Mel Waters on his program several years ago to describe the strange things associated with the hole that was on his property.  After the publicity generated from Art’s initial program on this subject, secret government blackmail shenanigans started-up, which ultimately caused the government to now be in possession of his property.

Art most recently had Mel on his program Tuesday night/Wednesday morning 1/29-30/02 for a mindbending update of what had been happening lately with him.  That’s a major story in itself, parts of which will be addressed by Red Elk as this interview progresses.]

Gail Cortright:  What do you think; did those dimes really exist?

Red Elk:  Oh, certainly.  The hole exists, I go there quite often. 

Gail Cortright:  How did he get it out of the hole?  Did it come out of the hole?

Red Elk:  Yes.

Gail Cortright:  How did it get out of the hole, is what I wonder.

Red Elk:  We’ll talk about that first, ok?  Are you ready?

Gail/Rick:  We’re ready.

Red Elk:  Mel’s Hole, does it exist?  Absolutely.  I first visited it in 1961, I believe, when my father and I were way up in the hills in an old Model-A or Model-T pickup truck.  And he said: “I’ve got something I want to show you, son.”

We drove down from way up on top of Manastash Ridge, and he showed me this hole.  He said “There’s no bottom.” 

And I thought “big deal” at the time, and then we drove back the way we came.  Nevertheless, I was there.  Yes, the hole exists. 

[Red Elk posted a note on the Art Bell Seattle area chat-club, online, concerning Mel’s Hole.  Here’s what he wrote:

“Do not look for this hole.  It is/can be extremely dangerous.  It’s name is Lucifer’s Leap.  One of the original holes dug-in by Lucifer to gain entry to #2 Earth (near the center of the Earth).

It is feared by all wildlife, and with good cause.  Death emits from it.  They Know.  Ho.

At the same time, these deep holes come in pairs.  Usually not far from each other, they are roughly 12-14 miles apart.  Just as it is so with the one here in Washington.

Combining these Negative/Positive energy holes creates our Earth winds!  This is the “stirring” in the atmosphere above us, Earth “round” that begets them (winds).  Ho.

Other forces (black) are drawn to the “bad” holes to “inhale” these black energies and also to refuel their particular ships’ engine needs.  The “Black Light” mentioned (on the Art Bell Mel’s Hole program) is the expelling of excess deep Earth’s inner energies.  A “flushing” in a sense.

The oppositive (good) hole(s) do not radiate this black light; instead their light is purity and unseen.  It is there, but unseen.  It is our Earth Mother’s goodness and love that emits from these.

The turmoil of the two meeting high above is, in a sense, a form of energy warfare.  Each trying to overpower the other, and in so doing the two forces act as a cooling “fan” to our Earth Mother’s skin.  There are no “accidents”.  All is designed to work together—black verses light equals perfect balance!  Thus both are good—i.e., both are GO(O)D.  Ho.

Anyway, Mr. Waters’ [talk] was done in bewilderment—looking for an answer.  He was/is so “stuned”, he needed to know for his sanity.  He had to know.  Yes, he did a brave thing.  I admire him for it.  Ho.  I am done.  — Red Elk.]

Why it leaves these strange objects, dropping them on the ground, this is rather interesting.

Gail Cortright:  That’s what I found pretty interesting.

Red Elk:  They talk about the black light that comes out of this.  Well, this is an expurging of the black energies of the [level] 2 and 3 inner-lands, Lucifer and his army’s inner-lands.  It’s kind-of a flushing-out.  And it IS black!  And it creates a form of—oh, I don’t know—a really strange energy, and it mixes in our heavens.  And this is not the only hole, or set, as you’ll find out, in existence on our planet.  There’s quite a number.  Not far from that hole is ANOTHER ONE, that is also endless, that exerts an OPPOSITE color, an unseeable color.  But those who can see, see it.  You understand what I mean?

[Editor’s note: Red Elk is here referring to those who can see the higher-frequency energies often called etheric energies, like seeing auras around people.

Gail/Rick:  Yes.

Red Elk:  The two—and these holes are usually 14, oh, not more than 25 miles apart.  And the two go into the heavens, and the atmosphere above kind-of blocks it.  And then the two mix together, and create the beginning of the Earth’s winds.  That’s where our winds are actually born.  It’s really interesting.

Gail Cortright:  It’s very interesting.

Red Elk:  Nevertheless, the other hole—these are so sacred, and so secret, that the Nations that know of these good holes say nothing about it.  And so far, luckily, the one that is local, that is close to Mel’s Hole, it’s mate if you want, is unfound.  And it will remain unfound.  I’m just revealing that it’s there; I’m not going to tell where.

And besides, if you want to go there, good luck with the rattlesnakes.  They’ve got good protection. 

But, nevertheless, in this expurging, you’ve got to comprehend what dimension is all about.  In this case, it deals almost wholly with parallel times.

Time, like with the watch on your hand, that type of time, and parallel times, are both identical in works.  And I can easily explain that.

Get a deck of cards.  What are there, 52 cards?

Hold them in your hand, above a table, and take the bottom card and set it on the table.  Now take the next card and set it on top of the table card.  Envisioning whatever you want,  that card is sinking into the first card.  And then, throw that second one on the floor somewhere.

So you have “merged” two cards, all the same thickness as the one, but now containing two.  And you do that on, and on, and on, until the end of the deck.

Therefore, you end up with only “one” card, with all cards in it.  This is parallel time.  This is how that works, as well as physical time. 

Actually, there is no time at all.  Other than seasons, there is no time.  But they both work on the same identical principal. 

Rick Martin:  Now, you mentioned on the Art Bell show the time cave.  Is that the other spot you were referring to?

Red Elk:  No. 

Rick Martin:  That’s something different?

Red Elk:  That one, my friend, tells you what our future is. 

Gail Cortright:  Wow.

Red Elk:  Or, it can take you into the past.  But let’s get back to the main subject. 

This expurging, the black light, cuts through the whole deck of cards.  Do you understand?

Gail Cortright:  Yes.

Red Elk:  Therefore, anything within that beam, passing through—human, dog—you know, the dog that came back to life?

[Editor’s note:  This is referring to one of Mel’s friends who had—the story goes, told by Mel—placed his dead dog in the hole and then later saw it alive and well, walking around in the vicinity of the hole.]

If that’s true, I don’t know.  But if the dog happens to be dropping when that black light comes, it could be very true.

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